Hi Gordo, Do you have any recommendation for a Pmax test for runners? It could be a field test rather than the lab one. I have access to a LAB, but not all my athletes can do the LAB.
I believe it could be also speed/pace Instead of power focused test.
I use your submax test frequently (6x 10 mins. gradually), but for some athletes I would like to test the "max" too. I use for some also the critical speed 6 min. test. Thanks for an advice. Tomas
You can set the test up for duration, or distance. I tend to use duration when testing on a treadmill and distance when using a track outside.
What you're going to do is test all the way from Very Easy (low Zone 1) through to Very Hard (Zone 5). Give some thought to where the steps will fall (tips in the chapter) so you get a look into where you expect each zone to be.
Give it a read and feel free to follow up. It's a useful test and the five-minute step protocol is used widely.
Hard to advise on this without more info, though in a nutshell I did 16 weeks of green zone and pushed my lactate curve down and to the right. Shed the fatigue over a week, dropping 10 CTL, good sleep and diet, did P-max and got a cold, spent another 10 days recovering, did the first HITT session and now cold again 48 hours later despite dropping everything else to zone 1. I'm thinking to recover from this cold, go back to green zone and forget V02 stuff. Its just giving me intermitancy as you say. Any advice is appreciated including a coach recommendation who follows your approach. Thank you.
Hi Gordo, Thank you for detailed response. I forgot this test completely :-)
As a coach I cooperate with a local LAB in the Czech Republic and we provide the treadmill test (including ECG) in 4 min. protocol including lactate analysis, but we end the test after the interval when the athlete reaches/crosses 4 mmol in order to set LT1 and LT2; it takes usually 6 - 8 gradual intervals. We do nor run "max effort" test.
Anyway, thank you for the reminder and great content which I like to use when explaining my athletes the basics and long term development.
I use also for myself field handheld lactate device (Scout) mostly for tempo and interval sessions.
One of the best field tests I like is the short uphill race: it is usually ca. 2 miles long, about 7 % incline mostly forest paths. These races are quite competitive so one must run full gas at least some parts of the race. I am still able to reach 175 beats in my 57 😊(my LT2 is about 162 maybe a bit higher).
Thanks again and good luck with training, coaching, writing and family. Tomas
I completed this whole protocol and short version is I increased my P-max watts by 30, so very pleased with that! I enjoyed the process very much including the roller coaster of emotions throughout lol.
Longer (TLDR) version (If you're contemplating doing this, hopefully there are a few tips for you below) - Despite having done many red zone workouts over the last 40 years of racing, I hadn't done much red zone in the last 10 to 15 years. I was surprised I didn't have a better memory of how hard it is to do 4X4s near your limit - some memory bias going on there. Due to this I feel the testing at the beginning of the block may have been a bit low. The testing at the end was on point because I was mentally prepared again (like in younger days lol) for what limit intensity felt like.
The emotional roller coaster I mentioned was real for me! First, I became ill with a sinus cold after the initial P-max test, recovered, did the verification test and then did the first HIIT and promptly became sick again! As Gordo has said, these efforts can come at a high cost and can go over if everything (sleep, rest, diet, stress, etc) is not in balance. I almost bailed on this whole thing and was just going to go back to zone 2, but recovered from the second cold, reduced the HIIT target to 85% of P-max and tried again. This got me on a roll and after a couple HIIT at 85% of P-max, I added 5% per session and got to 100% of P-max.
I also ditched the low rpm. I just couldn't do it physically. At 60rpm and my P-max watts, my legs just couldn't do it, they were on fire. It was a choice of don't do it, or 85 rpm, so went with the higher rpm. Perhaps leg strength is a limiter for me.
For the verification test at the end, while the 3 minutes at 110% of P-max was based on the test a few days earlier, I didn't change my LT1 or Tempo watts. I was anxious that I wasn't going to be able to hold my new 110% of P-max number for 3 minutes. As a result, the LT1 and Tempo targets during the verification test were low and very easy (not such a bad problem to have). Not sure if this invalidates the test a little bit as I was very fresh coming into the 3 minutes.
Really enjoyed the process. Thanks so much Gordo for posting this and all the advice you provide. I don't know why you don't have 5 million followers! Lastly, I did follow the Gordo text book protocol here in terms of spending 5 months and about 250 hours at or below LT1 to shift my lactate curve down and to the right. Now enough of that VO2 max stuff and onto the last 15 weeks of an ironman build with my new and improved bike power!
Appreciate you taking the time to write out your experience.
You should be able to build up your low-cadence tolerance gradually. The big gear work around ~60 rpm, using Z3 power, is useful for IM prep. Details in the cycling chapter.
I'm interested in the other sessions you would recommend in a VO2 block. During the 10-14 days between 5-6 min tests would the other (not VO2 loading) sessions ideally be green zone?
You’re likely to find everything else goes to maintenance both in terms of volume and intensity.
To maintain the quality of the tough sessions (which is the point of the block) I find everything else needs to be dialed down.
For multisport, that means maintaining strength and other sport frequency but dropping load. For a single sporter, maintain strength (light) and mostly easy training for the supplemental work.
That will leave you feeling great on the loading days and you might find you tolerate additional load on those days (after resting a bit from the key session). Easy run, for example, or I might do maintenance weights a couple hours later.
Another technique I use is a longer warmup, which gives additional easy volume. However, some coaches/athletes prefer to keep the day short and focused.
Bottom line, these blocks are infrequent and we want to keep the focus on the key sessions. Done well, they generate a good bit of fatigue/stress.
When I have the general conditioning to get a boost from Z5 work then I tolerate Z1 training on top. Session tolerance is a good way of tracking the block overall. We want the tough stuff to be lifting us up, not beating us down.
Got it. Around the V02 max sessions fill in with zone 1 stuff as tolerated to feel strong on V02 sessions. Question though whether its advisable to do one bike and one run V02 sessions per week instead of 2 bike v02 sessions per week and no run vo2 max sessions. Ive just completed 16 weeks of green zone training and will do an IM build block going back to green zone high volume following the 8-10 week vo2 max block.
I think it depends on your goals. I've done bike and run (same day, half dose of each).
Key thing you want to watch is the overall use of intensity lifts mood and performance -- if that's not happening then the sessions are too dense and/or the load is too much.
Hey Gordo, I just did some 3min intervals. Do you reach max HR on a 3min interval, or should you even? I'm about 10 beats off, and I'm wondering if the Central Governor is taking over the show...Certainly feels hard, but is it really?
If you're not within 85-90% of LT1 power then try a session where you lower the HIIT target a bit and see if you still get the VO2 Max feeling by the end of rep 3 and most of rep 4.
For me, the challenge of the active recovery was an interesting part of the set and gives me useful info about my clearance rate.
I have a training day sometimes with "supra-threshold" 6mins just above FTP, followed by below LT1. A bit more palatable than the VO2max ones. Interestingly, I did a course by Mike Boyle, and he was showing how they did intervals for team sports. I was surprised to see they actually stopped activity altogether in between hard intervals, until their HR reached a predefined level. Then they hit the next hard interval. This was on a treadmill...
Hi Gordo, Do you have any recommendation for a Pmax test for runners? It could be a field test rather than the lab one. I have access to a LAB, but not all my athletes can do the LAB.
I believe it could be also speed/pace Instead of power focused test.
I use your submax test frequently (6x 10 mins. gradually), but for some athletes I would like to test the "max" too. I use for some also the critical speed 6 min. test. Thanks for an advice. Tomas
Hi Tomas -
Between the Submax and Six-Minute tests is the Full Profile Test.
You will find it in the Run Chapter: https://feelthebyrn.substack.com/p/better-thinking-about-running
It's also mentioned in the Zones and Lactate Testing chapters but the outline you'll want for a runner is in the Run Chapter.
See: Run Benchmarking: https://feelthebyrn.substack.com/i/139341397/run-benchmarking
Specifically: The Full Profile Test: https://feelthebyrn.substack.com/i/139341397/the-full-profile-test
You can set the test up for duration, or distance. I tend to use duration when testing on a treadmill and distance when using a track outside.
What you're going to do is test all the way from Very Easy (low Zone 1) through to Very Hard (Zone 5). Give some thought to where the steps will fall (tips in the chapter) so you get a look into where you expect each zone to be.
Give it a read and feel free to follow up. It's a useful test and the five-minute step protocol is used widely.
g
Hard to advise on this without more info, though in a nutshell I did 16 weeks of green zone and pushed my lactate curve down and to the right. Shed the fatigue over a week, dropping 10 CTL, good sleep and diet, did P-max and got a cold, spent another 10 days recovering, did the first HITT session and now cold again 48 hours later despite dropping everything else to zone 1. I'm thinking to recover from this cold, go back to green zone and forget V02 stuff. Its just giving me intermitancy as you say. Any advice is appreciated including a coach recommendation who follows your approach. Thank you.
That sounds like a good plan. Big picture, the shifts from shifting the curve down/right are more useful than what you’ll get from a VO2 block.
For coaches, reach out to Iñaki and see what he thinks. We think similarly.
G
Thankyou. Appreciate it.
Hi Gordo, Thank you for detailed response. I forgot this test completely :-)
As a coach I cooperate with a local LAB in the Czech Republic and we provide the treadmill test (including ECG) in 4 min. protocol including lactate analysis, but we end the test after the interval when the athlete reaches/crosses 4 mmol in order to set LT1 and LT2; it takes usually 6 - 8 gradual intervals. We do nor run "max effort" test.
Anyway, thank you for the reminder and great content which I like to use when explaining my athletes the basics and long term development.
I use also for myself field handheld lactate device (Scout) mostly for tempo and interval sessions.
One of the best field tests I like is the short uphill race: it is usually ca. 2 miles long, about 7 % incline mostly forest paths. These races are quite competitive so one must run full gas at least some parts of the race. I am still able to reach 175 beats in my 57 😊(my LT2 is about 162 maybe a bit higher).
Thanks again and good luck with training, coaching, writing and family. Tomas
The uphill TT sounds like a tough session.
G
I completed this whole protocol and short version is I increased my P-max watts by 30, so very pleased with that! I enjoyed the process very much including the roller coaster of emotions throughout lol.
Longer (TLDR) version (If you're contemplating doing this, hopefully there are a few tips for you below) - Despite having done many red zone workouts over the last 40 years of racing, I hadn't done much red zone in the last 10 to 15 years. I was surprised I didn't have a better memory of how hard it is to do 4X4s near your limit - some memory bias going on there. Due to this I feel the testing at the beginning of the block may have been a bit low. The testing at the end was on point because I was mentally prepared again (like in younger days lol) for what limit intensity felt like.
The emotional roller coaster I mentioned was real for me! First, I became ill with a sinus cold after the initial P-max test, recovered, did the verification test and then did the first HIIT and promptly became sick again! As Gordo has said, these efforts can come at a high cost and can go over if everything (sleep, rest, diet, stress, etc) is not in balance. I almost bailed on this whole thing and was just going to go back to zone 2, but recovered from the second cold, reduced the HIIT target to 85% of P-max and tried again. This got me on a roll and after a couple HIIT at 85% of P-max, I added 5% per session and got to 100% of P-max.
I also ditched the low rpm. I just couldn't do it physically. At 60rpm and my P-max watts, my legs just couldn't do it, they were on fire. It was a choice of don't do it, or 85 rpm, so went with the higher rpm. Perhaps leg strength is a limiter for me.
For the verification test at the end, while the 3 minutes at 110% of P-max was based on the test a few days earlier, I didn't change my LT1 or Tempo watts. I was anxious that I wasn't going to be able to hold my new 110% of P-max number for 3 minutes. As a result, the LT1 and Tempo targets during the verification test were low and very easy (not such a bad problem to have). Not sure if this invalidates the test a little bit as I was very fresh coming into the 3 minutes.
Really enjoyed the process. Thanks so much Gordo for posting this and all the advice you provide. I don't know why you don't have 5 million followers! Lastly, I did follow the Gordo text book protocol here in terms of spending 5 months and about 250 hours at or below LT1 to shift my lactate curve down and to the right. Now enough of that VO2 max stuff and onto the last 15 weeks of an ironman build with my new and improved bike power!
Appreciate you taking the time to write out your experience.
You should be able to build up your low-cadence tolerance gradually. The big gear work around ~60 rpm, using Z3 power, is useful for IM prep. Details in the cycling chapter.
g
Hi G,
I'm interested in the other sessions you would recommend in a VO2 block. During the 10-14 days between 5-6 min tests would the other (not VO2 loading) sessions ideally be green zone?
Cheers,
Michael
You’re likely to find everything else goes to maintenance both in terms of volume and intensity.
To maintain the quality of the tough sessions (which is the point of the block) I find everything else needs to be dialed down.
For multisport, that means maintaining strength and other sport frequency but dropping load. For a single sporter, maintain strength (light) and mostly easy training for the supplemental work.
That will leave you feeling great on the loading days and you might find you tolerate additional load on those days (after resting a bit from the key session). Easy run, for example, or I might do maintenance weights a couple hours later.
Another technique I use is a longer warmup, which gives additional easy volume. However, some coaches/athletes prefer to keep the day short and focused.
Bottom line, these blocks are infrequent and we want to keep the focus on the key sessions. Done well, they generate a good bit of fatigue/stress.
When I have the general conditioning to get a boost from Z5 work then I tolerate Z1 training on top. Session tolerance is a good way of tracking the block overall. We want the tough stuff to be lifting us up, not beating us down.
G
Got it. Around the V02 max sessions fill in with zone 1 stuff as tolerated to feel strong on V02 sessions. Question though whether its advisable to do one bike and one run V02 sessions per week instead of 2 bike v02 sessions per week and no run vo2 max sessions. Ive just completed 16 weeks of green zone training and will do an IM build block going back to green zone high volume following the 8-10 week vo2 max block.
I think it depends on your goals. I've done bike and run (same day, half dose of each).
Key thing you want to watch is the overall use of intensity lifts mood and performance -- if that's not happening then the sessions are too dense and/or the load is too much.
g
Hey Gordo, I just did some 3min intervals. Do you reach max HR on a 3min interval, or should you even? I'm about 10 beats off, and I'm wondering if the Central Governor is taking over the show...Certainly feels hard, but is it really?
It depends on the day. Even with a best effort three-minute effort, I might end up 5-8 bpm below max.
I like to use power/pace for my Z3/4/5 intervals as HR has a big lag, and RPE has a smaller lag.
G
I was at roughly 125% FTP, yes I prefer to use power too. But I always feel like I could have gone harder. But maybe that’s fine……
Will try the 8min rests instead of 4/4….thnx.
I found it effective to make the session more tolerable mentally
„Overs and unders“ are my personal nemesis
Yes that is a def. Issue 😂 also maybe easier on total recovery
If you're not within 85-90% of LT1 power then try a session where you lower the HIIT target a bit and see if you still get the VO2 Max feeling by the end of rep 3 and most of rep 4.
For me, the challenge of the active recovery was an interesting part of the set and gives me useful info about my clearance rate.
g
I have a training day sometimes with "supra-threshold" 6mins just above FTP, followed by below LT1. A bit more palatable than the VO2max ones. Interestingly, I did a course by Mike Boyle, and he was showing how they did intervals for team sports. I was surprised to see they actually stopped activity altogether in between hard intervals, until their HR reached a predefined level. Then they hit the next hard interval. This was on a treadmill...
Thanks for the great info! So, for the SIT…how many reps for each set would you recommend??
Each SIT set is eight minutes long alternate 30 seconds on / 90 seconds off.
Use two sets with 25 minutes top of Zone 1 between.
G